Munkimuk

M: Munkimuk
TM: Tony Mitchell
AP: Alastair Pennycook
NK: Nick Keys

TM: Am I right in thinking that you started off doing hip-hop in Bankstown?

M: Ooh, here we go, here’s a bit of a history lesson for ya. It all started in Redfern about 23 years ago, or so. A few of the boys were into breakdancing – I wasn’t really into it – I was just hanging around a bit there. My mum lives in Bankstown and a few us Koori fellas who used to live in Bankstown would come into Redfern and see what was going on, and breakdancing was a big thing. Everyone started getting into it and then finally I started getting into it. And then it went onto graffiti where we had a bit of a crew; Black Connection was the name of the group from Redfern. And then it turned out that we had half of our members in Redfern and half in Bankstown, which then moved on into a music sort of thing and we started doing rhyming. Then we just got all of our mates that we knew and started bringing them into the group. So yeah, that’s how it all started. People would be coming around to our house, and what would happen is that the Youth Workers in the both Redfern and Bankstown would come along and they said to us ‘Oh, youse fellas said you were doing this music stuff. How would you like if we paid youse to come here and done this sort of thing for us and we’ll actually give you some money?’ And we went ‘What?! Money? You can actually make money out of this stuff? No way! No worries mate, we’re there!’ And from there it just kind of grew and grew and we just had our own crew doing our own thing. Haven’t looked back since, don’t think I’ve had a normal job since then, which is like, oh, 15 or 16 years ago.

TM: So you’ve been running workshops with kids?

M: Yeah, been running workshops with kids for a long time. Here and overseas, and especially through the desert, up through the desert in Northern Territory, out in western New South Wales, up through Queensland, South Australia, WA. And me being someone that also raps in Indigenous languages, it’s really good for the kids in the desert to see that you don’t have to be a yo yo – an American as I call them – rapping in an American accent. Even if you don’t speak English as your first language you can rap in your native tongue.

TM: I saw you in Desert Rap, which was one of the first desert workshops.

M: Yeah, that was in 98 or so.

TM: With Morgan [Morganics] and Brotha Black. About what time did South West Syndicate come into being?

M: We started performing as a group probably in about 92. And we started travelling and performing and the people who first seen us at a few different gigs and they just kept offering us more gigs, and we thought ‘Oh yeah, we’ll get onto this, this is good value, we’ll have a go!’ From there it never stopped, all the way up until 2003 when we actually won a Deadly Award. I really got a bit sick of the touring around and the travelling, which was a constant battle for me. So I exited the situation and went into retirement. I’ve been out working with the education department, teaching out in Aboriginal communities for a couple of years and I’ve had my – what would you call it – my fire renewed from that sort of thing and I’m on my hip-hop comeback trail.

TM: As a solo artist?

M: Yeah, as a solo artist. And me being a bit of a musician as well, I’ve worked with a lot of different Indigenous desert bands. Playing instruments is my thing as well, I love to get on the guitar, the drums, the bass, the keyboards and have a go. So I basically got into the studio and played all the stuff live, so there’s no samples. So it’s something a bit different from a normal hip-hop album, which is all computer-generated – there’s nothing wrong with that but I just wanted to go in a different direction. A bit more of jazzy, funky feel, a bit more of a live feel. My one-man band that’s in demand. And I do all the singing parts over the top of that as well, from the low to the middle to the high like Michael Jackson, Wooooowoooowooo! I’m doing all the raps over the top as well, which is probably like the meat and body of the songs.

TM: And so are we going to see you as a multi-instrumentalist tonight?

M: Oh yeah, I will be playing a few things tonight. I’ll probably play a few songs on acoustic guitar and then just jump up on the mic and do what I do best. I’ve been making a bit of a name for myself as a freestyle battler lately, in the last year or so. Which has been a bit of fun, I was never into that before.

TM: Have you been winning?

M: Yeah, I’ve been doing quite well. Which really lead to me getting distribution for my album overseas. I’ve got no distribution in Australia, my distribution is through Canada, American and Europe, and so I’m looking to see what I can do about this country. I suppose you can import it!

TM: A bit ironic isn’t it? So the album’s already out there is it?

M: Nah, I’m just putting on the finishing touches now. I’m just getting some of the girls from Koori radio to do an intro for it, which gives it a down to earth community feel. I did ask them before they did it, ‘Now, are youse guys serious journalists?’ Because my things always been a bit of comedy, I always try to have a go and take the piss a bit. There is definitely serious stuff on my album but there is a whole section that is comedy type stuff – making fun of myself and everyone around me. Then I move into politics, which has been a favourite thing of mine for some time now, my favourite buddy is Mr Howard, Mr Bush, etc, etc. I’m onto ‘em. And then I’ve got the Aboriginal-type stuff as well, so a bit of rapping in language.

TM: Right, which particular language?

M: On this album I wanted to go back to my Grandmother’s language, which is Jardwadjali. Because I’ve been travelling through the desert and learning lots of desert languages over the years, it was good to get back to my actual language group, and study that and get some songs out of that.

TM: What part of the country is that?

M: That’s down in Victoria, in the Grampians, which is a beautiful mountainous region in western Victoria. With that, I’ve got another song on there, ‘Shades of Grey’, which attacks the issue of being a fair-skinned blackfella. Obviously I’ve got a lot of fair skin, but I’m Aboriginal blood within, and I don’t really think anyone’s attacked this issue before, but as someone who’s done a lot of travelling around this country, let me tell you, there is a lot of fair skin blackfellas out there. The song developed because of people coming up to me at shows and saying ‘Thanks for being out there, thanks for representing us,’ because when people think Indigenous they think dark skin. So when I jump on stage with my fair skin and do my thing, they get a bit surprised, especially when I start rapping in language.

TM: What other languages have you used?

M: I’ve done verses in Arrernte, which is Alice Springs language; a bit in Wiradjuri, Gamilaraay, Uliraay which is a more western version of Gamilaraay, out Lighting Range way. Also a few other desert languages mainly from the Northern Territory area. Yeah, I’ve definitely been into my languages over the years.

TM: Fantastic. And you’ve worked with Morgan a lot haven’t you?

M: Yeah, I’ve done a couple of workshop-type things with Morgan in the desert. That was a few years ago now. It’s always good to go out there, especially through the desert near Arnhem Land, to meet up with the kids. Because American culture and influence is a big thing, and because hip-hop is an American things – just to show them you can do it with an Australian accent, or, if you actually speak in native tongue then you can rap in your native language. Once they see me do it, they start getting into it and rapping in their own tongue. For some of these people, English is like their fifth language, so I try to get them to do it in lingo. And there’s a whole bunch of kids out there who are rapping in lingo these days, which you’ve got to love.

TM: That’s great, and had any of it been recorded?

M: Yeah, Morgan does a hell of a lot of recording of that sort of stuff around the country. Myself, I’m more into touring the culture. As Southwest Syndicate, we’d tour a fair bit and give a whole cultural performance: didgeridoo and dance, Aboriginal storytelling, singing in Aboriginal languages and then we go and do our rap stuff, even a bit of breakdancing at the end – so you can watch us spin on our heads for a bit! The crowd always love that.

TM: I think the last time I saw you was at one of the Pacific Wave festivals, which would have been two or three years ago.

M: Well, that’s what I mean. We had a long range of gigs from 92 all the way up to 2003, which is an 11 year stint in which we played a hell of a lot of shows.

TM: And did some recording too?

M: Yeah, we recorded with lots of different people, mainly producing other groups really. I was never really into it for myself, more for the community we were in at the time, ‘Oh yeah, so we’re up in Yothu Yindi country now, how are we going to do something with these guys?’ Or some of the Nableck band up in Oenpelli and we go ‘Alright, let’s get in there and we’ll get an album happening’. So we were like that, never really into it for ourselves, but we should have been in it for ourselves from the start mate! Nah, it puts a smile on your face to know there is all this material out there, especially the Indigenous language stuff that’s been done over the years, which definitely makes me proud to have been a part of, that’s for sure.

TM: So you’ve done a lot of collaborations over the years, in different musical genres?

M: Yeah, definitely a lot of different genres. Definitely not just hip-hop, plenty of country stuff, reggae, rock, whatever. To me, music is music, and being someone who plays instruments as well, I’m happy to jump in on a country band or reggae band. It’s always good to not differentiate between musics and just throw in a bit of this and bit of that.

TM: Would you agree with Wire MC when he says that ‘Hip-hop is the modern day corroboree’?

M: Oh yeah, yeah. Because you can see that these days most of the young kids are right into the hip-hop stuff, and older people like myself who are still doing it. I definitely love my hip-hop, I was lucky to be there back in the early 80s when it was all kicking off, so I’m proud to carry the relay torch and pass it on to whoever I can.

TM: In your work with kids, do you find that they are particularly willing to listen to a hip-hop artist?

M: Yeah, soon as I walk in and start spitting all these rhymes at them, then they get right into it. Same with breakdancing, once you start spinning on your back and your head for a bit, they always get a bit excited.

TM: So, it’s quite an important educational tool in many ways?

M: That’s right. Working with the education department has been good because I’m not a qualified teacher at all, but I’ve been sent to lots of schools around, especially as part of the Indig Readers project, which is a company that produces books by Indigenous authors and artists that go into schools. And not just Indigenous schools, I’ve done workshops at non-Indigenous schools, like this Catholic school I did the other day, they were right into all the raps and Indigenous culture that was coming through in all these books. So, it’s been a privilege to work with the education department and go up to schools, especially in places where there is not a high attendance of kids. Usually when I turn up for however long I’m employed to be there, attendance rates jump through the roof, back up to 100% for a couple of weeks. I dunno what happens when I leave though. When I’m there the first day there’s a few kids in there and they all go back and tell everyone, and the next day school is packed. It’s a bit of an eye-opener but it’s good for the kids. I try to teach them to stay in school and while I’m there we’re writing raps, and showing them things to do with maths, artwork, dance, all of those things. But doing it all in a fun way so they get excited about it and they usually are very excited about it. They are always involved, there are never kids sitting back thinking ‘Oh, this is crap,’ and playing up, which is what you get in the normal school system. Usually my way of teaching is either everyone is involved or no one is involved which means all the kids that do wanna learn look at the ones who don’t and say ‘Get in there and do this or where not gonna have a chance,’ and you do find those kids do them get involved and by the end are the most enthusiastic.

TM: And what kind of bodies fund you to do these activities?

M: Different people around the place. It started off being the Australia Council and places like that, but I do some things that aren’t funded at all. ATSIC was a big funder for a long time there as well, the education department obviously. There are things I’ve done for very little money as well, for communities that are in dismay, where there is a lot of things going on in the community and so I step in there for not much at all and help. I don’t know, it’s just inside me to be more of a helpful person. So yeah…

TM: One of things about this kind of work, which you indicate, is the lack of infrastructure.

M: There is absolutely none.

TM: You work with the kids for a few days who get all enthused and excited, and then you go away and everything falls apart.

M: That’s why I always try to come back. That’s the most important thing, getting back into these communities and finding out what has gone on since last time I was there. And usually, say like in the community of Bogabilla where I was for a little while, I think it was one of the worst schools in the state at the time, and now they have their own rap gro

up: The Bogabilla Thrillers. It’s like a bunch of nine- and ten-year-olds, there’s like 15 of them and they’ve played like 50 gigs by now around the southern Queensland and northern New South Wales area which is brilliant to see. The Sydney Morning Herald has gone in and done stories on how this school has gone from not doing much to being role models for other communities.

TM: Wow, that’s fantastic. Were you involved at all in the Wilcannia stuff?

M: Nah, that was all Morgan and Wire doing that. But I’ve been out to Wilcannia and seen the mob out there, it’s always good. I’ve been lucky to extensively travel this country and I always try to leave an impression, have a bit of fun and get the educational thing happening as well. But mainly, for me, it’s being able to see smiles on kids’ faces, and not just kids, smiles on the faces of the elders, smiles on parents. I know I’ve done well if I walk away from there leaving a whole bunch of people with grins on their faces.

TM: Talking of elders, is hip-hop something that they will generally accept?

M: That’s the thing, some of these elders get me into the communities because they don’t like the way the kids are going with the American hip-hop. I try to go in and show them, ‘Nah, this is the way we do it. This is Aboriginal hip-hop here, we’re not yo yos, there’s no yo yo yo here. We’re not living in LA or New York; we’re out here in the middle of the desert’.

TM: Are they very resistant to that?

M: Usually they are, usually at the start they are. But when you start telling them about where you come from and your stories, and you tell them about their heroes in America who I’ve met and have said ‘Who are these people, are they imitating us or something, why are they rapping in American accents?’ ‘Cause the Americans think it’s stupid that the Australians are rapping in their accents. Once I was with Ice-T and his crew when they were over here and there was this guy rapping in an American accent and they thought he was taking the piss, they wanted to have a fight with the bloke. They were saying ‘Is this guy trying to take the piss out of us?’ And we were like ‘Nah nah, it’s just that the only thing he’s ever heard is American rap, so they rap like Americans.’ Then they went, ‘Oh… alright.’ Yeah, it was a situation to diffuse.

TM: It’s seems there are a lot of affinities between aspects of hip-hop and Aboriginal forms of storytelling…

M: Yeah, that’s where we try to go with it, towards a corroboree and that sort of thing. Aboriginal language is never written a language; it’s always an oral and visual language, stories being passed down through rituals, corroborees, song and dance. Yeah, hip-hop fits in quite well with that, which is lucky for me I’d say!

TM: Is this perhaps one reason why elders tend to approve?

M: Oh, mainly ‘cause the kids are right into it, because the kids are so influenced by these artists they are thinking what can we do to get culture into this sort of thing. Now, it’s actually predominate, Aboriginal hip-hop is out there and all the communities know about it. Tonight on the bill we’ve got all these deadly artists who are all Indigenous hip-hop artists and there is a whole heap of them all around the country who are getting their stuff out there and now it’s becoming predominate in Aboriginal communities. The elders know that Aboriginal hip-hop exists and are keen to get these people into their communities to show these kids that they can get their own people doing it.

TM: Right, because this is probably the first event of its kind, well, in Sydney at least….

M: Definitely, or anywhere in the country, this is basically the cream of the crop of Aboriginal hip-hop – to put in a bit of rhyme for ya! But yeah, it definitely an honour for an old bloke myself to be on the bill with the guys.

TM: And a few Deadly Award winners on the bill…

M: Yeah, a few Deadlys on the bill, and people have been doing stuff on the community, recognising the community. So yeah, it’s going to be a fantastic night tonight, I’m mainly looking forward to watching the other acts.

TM: You mentioned before that you’ve travelled overseas and met some US hip-hop artists; can you talk a bit about that?

M: Oh yeah, mainly the US hip-hop artists I’ve met have come here. Ice Cube came here back in 92 or 93, and it was good to meet that guy and tell him a bit about what we were doing in Australia. Show him that we do it our own style. Ice-T has come back three times or so, even with his death metal band Bodycount, and he always comes around and wants to know what the goss is, see what’s going down. I’ve done a bit of stuff with Public Enemy as well, who have always been supporters of world hip-hop really, of getting your own hip-hop up and running in all countries all around the world, it’s an international thing.

TM: Did they take a particular interest in the Aboriginal hip-hop?

M: Um, yeah, yeah. Because of being a black music form and them being African Americans they were interested in that. But mainly they were interested in just how Australia has embraced hip-hop as country and where it’s going, what’s it done to communities etc.

TM: What about Michael Franti?

M: Yeah, he’s another one. I’ve been lucky enough to play with him a few times. He’s someone I really like because he plays instruments on stage as well, which kind of got me looking at him on stage and going ‘Wait a second… he plays acoustic guitars and raps at the same time… I’m on to that!’

TM: Which is something that Wire does as well isn’t it?

M: Yeah, Wire does that as well, so, much props to him. And there is a few others, like Lez Beckett and Brotha Black, they all play guitars as well, Jakalene Extreme plays guitar also. Everyone has a bit of a go at playing guitar, which is good. It’s more of the Aboriginal hip-hop artists are into playing their instruments, especially dig, there’s always an element of dig in there. Remember with Aboriginal culture, our aunties and uncles and all that have been raised on country music, which is heavily influenced by people like Charleton Pride and people like that. All of us have grown up listening to that sort of stuff when we were young, from the elders and that. Country music is still a big thing, you’ve got Uncle Roger Knox and Troy Casser-Daly, etc. out there doing their thing. Yeah, so we like to pick up a guitar and it’s good to be able to see, say, Warren H. Williams out in Alice Springs and be able to strum a few things with him, sit around the camp fire and have a bit of a jam, sing ‘Midnight Special’ and a few of his songs. We throw a couple of raps in the middle of it and that sort of thing.

TM: Which is something I suppose that might make some of the more rigid hip-hoppers a bit angry.

M: Yeah fully, some of the straight up hip-hop hip-hop and only into hip-hop people think ‘These guys mix it up a bit’. But nah, I’m always open to mixing it up and bringing whatever elements into it. I’m not a hip-hop purist apparently! But mainly I’m a hip-hop artist, and hopefully with my album which I’ve called Ten Years Too Late – nice little title there – I’m trying to bring in the instruments and playing live, and hopefully I’ll get away and create my own little field there. And doing all the singing parts in the choruses gives it a bit more of another feel. I’ve gone for the Midnight Oil type edge there where I’ve done all the harmonies myself and done me best sort of impersonation there, maybe? Rob Hirst is someone that I’m heavily influenced by over the years.

TM: Actually, that’s something The Herd said, that Midnight Oil was a big influence.

M: Yeah, I’ve always been a huge Oils fan. The first time I picked up a guitar I think I picked it up so I could learn how to play ‘US Forces’.

AP: I was interested about when you were talking about working in schools, and it was great because all the kids got really interested and were coming to school for a change. I’m interested in what you’re able to do when you’re using hip-hop in schools?

M: I was showing them things like rhyming, having a board there and saying what word rhymes with this word. I give them a word, like ‘Today I woke up and went to school’, and ask what rhymes with ‘school’ and they’ll come back with all the ‘ool’ words, all of them having a go, spitting back all these words at ya. And then I say ‘Alright, now you’ve got all the words, let’s put them into a sentence. What are we going to say about it?’ and they might say ‘cool’ or something, and I go ‘Alright, we’ve got the word cool, it rhymes with school, but what are we going to do with cool?’ And they’ll come up and start giving you idea of sentences, and I’m trying to involve everyone. I even go onto the maths side of things, where traditional teaching of multiplication and percentages is a bit too much for some kids, you put it in a different way, ‘OK, who watched the football on the weekend?’ And they’ll say, ‘Yeah, yeah, I watched the footy’, so you go ‘Alright, this bloke had this many shots at goal, and he got this many in, and youse seen the percentage he had for the day on the screen, what is it? If he got this many goals from this many attempts, what’s his percentage?’ And I’ll tell you know, they’ll come back with it, they’ll come back with it, which is amazing. It’s like out on the mission and places like that, they play lots of bingo, and the kids walk around collecting money and the kids know exactly how much money they are taking and giving back. Their counting skills are immaculate, mate. It’s not like these kids can’t learn, it’s more that draconian teaching methods in place don’t excite the kids and doesn’t give them a feeling of wanting to come to school. So if I can come along and try and change some of this, then I will. I’ve done a few talks at the education department and to different teachers as well, just trying to bring these strategies into the systems of teaching. Sometimes you get met with the pull-your-socks-up-type person who is not going to change their way, but most of ‘em come back and say ‘Thanks for that, we’re going to use this and engage the kids a bit more’. It’s about getting them a lot more involved, and giving them fun activities to do, instead of following a strict syllabus. So… there you go, hopefully I’ve answered your question there!

AP: Yes, it’s interesting.

NK: It sounds like comedy is a really important part of your philosophy of education…

M: Yeah that’s right. If I come in there and be full-on serious and go ‘OK, I’m Munkimuk and I’m the best rapper in the world and I’m here and youse are all gonna do what I say’, then these kids are gonna go ‘What is this guy?’ So I walk in, make a few jokes, gee them up a bit, shake my head a bit, roll me eyes and the usually engage instantly, they say ‘Munk! What are you doing there bro?’ I go ‘Alright you mob, time for action, last one in the class I’ll shut the door on ‘em’. And even kids that aren’t engaging in breakdancing, they go ‘I can’t breakdance,’ and I go ‘Alright, that’s it, you’re on detention if you don’t breakdance!’ It’s all in fun if you know what I mean; comedy is a good way to get them going.

TM: So do you still breakdance?

M: Yep, at my ripe old age of 37 I’m still spinning around on me back and me head, that’s why I’m going a bit bald here. But as you see, I got rid of the grey hair, don’t tell anyone, but I dyed it blond mate!

TM: What about graff?

M: Yeah, artwork, that’s the thing I teach at some of the schools, get them to do their name in a couple of different graff styles, and also teach them about colour schemes and that as well, what fits together and what doesn’t. They are usually very excited about that sort of thing. I don’t tell them to go out and get a whole bunch of spray cans and start painting your community to pieces…

TM: Or doing the trains.

M: Yeah, not the trains. But yeah, they love learning about drawing, they always say ‘Munki, when we doing drawing?’ And with the books, I done a couple of books for the Indig Readers: Raps For Little Fellas and Raps For Big Fellas and they come with a CD as well, so they can pop a CD in a read along, to help the kids who are illiterate can read along and learn the words. That’s a bit of a hit in the communities and I did all colourful graff stuff in all the books so the kids all say ‘Oi, look at that.’ I think some of the kids look at the pictures more than anything else!

TM: Where can we get hold of the books? Are they available?

M: You can go to www.indijreaders.com which is the Indigenous Readers website. They’ve got a whole lot of books with all different authors like Anthony Mundine and Michael O’Loughlin and Adam Goodes. Just a whole heap of role models and also some elders from the community, people like Kath Farrawell from Glebe, and a whole heap of different ones from around the state. It’s a NSW initiative, so they are all NSW authors and artists, people like Elaine Russel and that, who are contributing to the art. I’m honoured to be a part of that sort of thing, and the reaction from kids, not just in Indigenous schools, but all schools, they love the books, and not just my book. Usually any book that comes out on Indig Readers usually has ragged edges after the first couple of weeks.

AP: Are they all in English?

M: Yeah, all of them are in English. I think I’m the only one who has a bit of language in there, where I do a little song in language, but then I’ve written the English translation on the other side of the page so they can work out what the translation is. It’s on the CD in language as well so they can follow along, and that’s in Gamilaraay language.

TM: Who would you say, as a hip-hop artist, have been your big influences?

M: As hip-hop influences, probably Run DMC, Sugar Hill Gang and Grandmaster Flash and all them old guys from the late-70s and early-80s type.

TM: Right, so the old school.

M: Yeah. I got into hip-hop because those guys were doing it, and then influences from meeting people, probably Public Enemy, because talking to Chuck a little bit definitely influenced me as a person. And Michael Franti for showing me you could do instrumental music and rapping all in the same minute on stage. Also, there are some pretty underground independent influences that are a little less famous, guys like Fusnickum [sp.] who were the first guys into speed rapping and they brought raps at a hundred miles an hour. They were back in the late 80s when they started doing their thing. I’ve never been a mainstream-type person so I’ve always gone looking for this sort of stuff.

TM: Anyone on the Australian scene who have been particularly influential or helpful?

M: Oh, they are all helpful, but being, what would you call it, one of the pioneers of this…

TM: Yeah, so it’s more you being an influence on others.

M: Yeah, yeah, I don’t really look at it like that, but I suppose me being a lot older than the rest of them… Like all of the guys on the bill tonight, I saw their very first gigs and a lot of them have been around for ten or 15 years now as well, which is brilliant to be able to see where they have come to.

TM: Do you still work with Brotha Black?

M: We are kind of doing our own thing at the moment, he’s doing a bit of theatre stuff and I’m busily working on my album and doing my freestyling stuff. But I’m sure in the future we’ll be back on the attack together.

TM: And South West Syndicate broke up because people where just going in different directions?

M: Yeah, different directions, because all the other Arab guys were out doing their thing, starting families and trying to get their own houses together and starting up businesses. So then we turned into more of an Aboriginal collective, and then Lez was in Descendance which is really big overseas, they’ve done performances for the Queen, Hollywood stuff etc etc. So Lez is really into the more traditional type stuff. Brotha Black is into his theatre type stuff and he’s got his own solo thing happening at the moment also. And I’ve been coerced back out of retirement, from being an educator into an artist and performer again, which I’m definitely hungry for.